User Reviews Overview
About Windward System Five
Windward Software's Windward System Five helps small to midsize businesses manage their operations by providing an integrated point of sale and accounting solution with real-time inventory management. Windward System Five is a...
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- Used Daily for 6-12 months
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Review Source
A powerful POS with unlimited flexibility, reliable stability, and great support staff.
Saved our company time and money in the ling run. Being able to customize the look, feel, and functions of the application let us implement EXACTLY what our company needed. We evaluated MANY other products before choosing Windward, and nothing comes close. It was one of the better decisions made in our organization, and is a big personal red-feather in my hat.
Pros
- Extremely customizable. Allows you to customize anything from report, to custom price-labels, to customized POS screen (even changing the size/color/look of virtually every button). If you are a little more adventurous, you can even write code that allows you make your own functions.
- Easy to learn. For as advanced as this is, most people can pick up on the majority what thy need in a day. For those who want to do more, their is a complete 'Windward Academy' that you can watch videos and read comprehensive guides.
- LOTS of support. If I ever have a question, there are about ten people I can call. Of-course, they have 24/7 technical support, but virtually anyone in the company is eager and willing to help. I can call my account manager, or any number of others I have talked to throughout the installation process. Even the lovely receptionist is awesome has walked me through issues on more than one occasion.
- Philippines support. You might think this would be under the "Cons" section; but it isn't. The Philippines support is not outsourced like other companies, but they are actual employees working in a Windward office in Cebu. They all speak great English, are EXTREMELY knowledgeable about the product, and aim to please. No matter how frantic I am when I call, they never get upset and are always positive. And they are not going to give up until it's fixed. - You typically don't find this level of customer service in Western support groups.
Cons
- Price tag will be your biggest hurdle. And some features will cost you extra. Having to pay extra to have the software integrate with our merchant account is probably the biggest complaint I have with the company. But even this is vastly outweighed by the Pros. If you want the best, it probably isn't going to be the cheapest.
- There are occasional errors that pop up and random issues. But 90% of these are self-resolving (very intuitive software). For the other 10%, support is right there to remote in and stay with you until it's resolve.
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Windward since 2006
Pros
The service from Windward when needing help.
Cons
Missing simple sales reports that we use to use in Great Plains.
Reasons for Choosing Windward System Five
It was DOS and needed to update.Reasons for Switching to Windward System Five
I looked at many more than the 2 above. But do not remember all I looked at. Was at least 8. Not sure Profit.co is the correct oneResponse from Windward Software
Hi Joellyn,
Thanks for the review! We'll be sure to pass along the note about our service to the Customer Care team. We do have advanced reporting now available with Windward Intelligence. You may want to reach out to your Account Manager to see it in action. Thanks again!
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Updated: By Far The Worst POS I've Ever Used (Support Included)
I have been disappointed, and remain disappointed. I left a similar review a few months ago, and I was contacted by Windward in an effort to improve matters - which I do appreciate - but, unfortunately, that has not been enough to change my perspective on Windward. For myself, the general ease of use does not make up for the incredible amount of problems this software has. I have been working with various POS systems for over 10 years now, and this is the only one that ever inspired me to go out of my way and leave a review, because it's just so consistently problematic. I have been asked directly by the staff at Windward to update my review, and I do wish it had improved in any way, but I am more convinced than ever that there are much better choices out there.
Pros
In comparison to previous software used, the finalization of the inventory process within Windward is rather straight-forward. The ability to print count sheets with only product in stock - no part numbers with a "zero" quantity, is great and saves paper. However, products often randomly shift into categories like 'financial' which causes the item to remain on the inventory count. I have had to request help from support on this multiple times.
Cons
I have used Windward software all day, every week day, for two years now and I consistently encounter issues in day to day operations. I have had problems with the cash out feature not allowing me to finalize the file and close the day; I am constantly getting error messages, or "unplanned shutdown" messages when an unplanned shutdown has not occurred; there are processing issues with rental invoices that cause the invoice totals to change, after the invoice has been finalized and submitted. This specifically has created MAJOR discrepancies on our invoices that has resulted in us to losing money, and having to issue apologies to many of our major accounts. One of these incidents has caused irreparable harm to our business relationship with our (previously) largest customer.
Top Windward System Five Alternatives
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Good POS Order Management Software
Very happy with the software. They worked with me in implementing and transferring our data with only a few hickups.
Pros
Order Management, POS, Inventory Tracking.
Cons
Not as customizable as I would like. Email feature lacks templates for the email body of the message when sending statements in bulk. Could have a better more customizable email feature for invoices and statements.
Alternatives Considered
FishbowlReasons for Choosing Windward System Five
Windward has superior order management.Reasons for Switching to Windward System Five
Better developed product and support.- Industry: Hospital & Health Care
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
windward system 5
Overall system 5 is an end to end solution which we count on to mange our business. We would like to see regular scheduled maintaince as part of our annual subscription plan. We have invested heavily in to the software on the years and would.lien to feel we can get value added serviced included.
Pros
The software is an end to end solution for our business - we like this alot.
This last year the software has slowed down which has created inefficiencies.
Cons
The software performance has dropped as we add more users and increase the date base.
The length of time it takes to book appointments has been increasing over the last two years
- Industry: Automotive
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Basic programming and intigration issues.
Having trouble intigrating Windward System Five, with shipping programs.
Pros
Easy for the sales people to use, once they are very familiar with the system.
Cons
There are basic programming errors, such as date changes, Currency type, etc. that do not flow through the je, you have to change existing je's line by line. The control numbers should change what is in the je. When I addressed the issue, I was brushed off and just told to adjust the entries. When you try to use a date range for printing vendor accounts it does not work.
Trying to get it to work with other programs has been a problem, and everthing has a price tag associated with it.
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
why I use windward
When we first started with windward it was fantastic. If we needed support, we called in Australia and it was fixed. Now there is no point in using that phone number! It then seemed the support workers did not know windward very well and I was brushed off or it would take a long time to resolve the issue. I must say it is getting better but not as good as it once was.
Pros
This system fits our needs with long part numbers. We are not computer people so the support is very important to us.
Cons
Some times it takes so long to get the support we need. The was such an issue I did think about changing systems. It has got better.
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 1+ year
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Review Source
My review
Able to handle our large inventory
Pros
Inventory volume control, inventory adjustments
Cons
Clitches, slow, trade ins difficult, doesn’t round on account payments
- Industry: Furniture
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
A life saver
As business exploded we were able to keep up to the increases in stock levels,expected stock and tagging stock already on order for specific clients.
Pros
There are many ways to find what ever it is you need to know. Much of the system is logical. From finding customer to products ,it has a report for everything.
Cons
Data entry is easy unless your dislexic.
Upgrades are hard to keep updated again ,the users fault.
- Industry: Mining & Metals
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
WIndward: A decent database for small business. (Version: 6.2.4.579)
Overall, Windward is stable and fairly simple to use. The product also includes a rental component which is also fairly simple to operate.
Pros
Ease of use, Windows familiarity help to make a decent experience.
Cons
Too many times, brushing a hand over the keyboard has erased entire lines from the invoice.
An invoice locking tool would be great.
Response from Windward Software
Hi Paul, Thanks for the feedback and for choosing Windward System Five for your business. If you want to review some of the specifics you mentioned, please reach out to your Account Manager.
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
From your friends at Bob's
Windward 5 does so much above and beyond the POS/accounting systems I have used in the past, and I know I haven’t made it through all it has to offer.
The integrated CRM is very useful for keeping track of appointments and follow ups. I’m able to see that staff has made these appointments and keep them accountable for follow ups.
There is so much that can be done to organize and track inventory. Set multiple selling prices, build kits out of existing parts. Add pictures for staff and customers to reference, and way more.
Booking orders use to take me days to put together. Now the system tells me what I need based on past years. Some orders now take me less then a hour.
Information and automation. Windward tracks so much for you and automates tasks. Saving you 100’s of hours and $1000’s of dollars a year. I am very happy I made this investment
Pros
Windward 5 does so much above and beyond the POS/accounting systems I have used in the past, and I know I haven’t made it through all it has to offer.
The integrated CRM is very useful for keeping track of appointments and follow ups. I’m able to see that staff has made these appointments and keep them accountable for follow ups.
There is so much that can be done to organize and track inventory. Set multiple selling prices, build kits out of existing parts. Add pictures for staff and customers to reference, and way more.
Booking orders use to take me days to put together. Now the system tells me what I need based on past years. Some orders now take me less then a hour.
Information and automation. Windward tracks so much for you and automates tasks. Saving you 100’s of hours and $1000’s of dollars a year. I am very happy I made this investment
Cons
It does take some time to set up, but you do get some great help. There is allot to learn. Be prepared to give this some attention, it will be worth it.
Response from Windward Software
Thanks for the Feedback Justin!
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Windward and You. The tutorial.
We have solved issues with double ordering Special Orders, have streamlined Purchase Orders, Receiving, Price Changes, Showroom tag printing.
I am able to compile reports simply, where it use to take days.
Taking inventory is so much faster using data collectors and being able to import the files.
Pros
Our old system was very outdated and Windward has made it so much simpler and quicker to get our monthly/quarterly reports. Integration between order taking and purchasing has helped speed up the ordering process & stop mistakes being made. Love the virtual warehouse option.
Cons
What i feel is missing is:
1. Freeform 1 & 2 can be data loaded in. Freeform 1 can be on a report, but Freeform 2 can not.
2. Sales/Upsell warnings can be on a report, but not data loaded.
3. Purchase warnings can be data loaded, but not put on a report.
(Invoice Warnings can be data loaded & put on a report)
4. There is no where to search "Non-Stock Special Orders" by number or supplier in history.
5. A report that can show me all items sold per book month with the following parameters.
sales clerk name, Invoice #, Date of sale, Customer name, Qty, Item #, Price ea., & Price total.
A report that will pull ALL items. (stock, Non-stock).
Currently i have to use 2 different reports, export to excel, and then combine them to create the report i need to send to suppliers for their sales incentives (spiffs). Granted this is alot better than the old computer system, but still takes longer than it should.
side note: i have seen and experienced so far that if someone requests an addition, that the programs will do ONLY what was asked for. Example: you were asked to increase item #'s and part #'s to 50 characters. That was done, but they didnt change non-stock special orders where you have to manually type in the characters. When i caught this problem and brought it up to tech and the programers, the response was " they didnt ask for that to be done" and "it is what it is". Same with items i listed. can data load, but not put on reports.
Response from Windward Software
Hi Todd,
Thanks for taking the time to write this! Other lighting showrooms that may be considering Windward will find this helpful.
As for your reporting concerns, we may be able to help through a project plan from the professional services catalog which would be a great place to start to explore existing functionality. https://www.windwardsoftware.com/resources/professional-services.html
There is also the option to do some custom programming if you have requirements that cannot be handled by the current reporting tools.
We are looking forward to many more years of service to Grand Rapids Lighting.
Thanks again Todd!
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Windward can't do that, but let's try to come up with a "Workaround" for you....
Headaches
Pros
I like the ability to special order a product on a work order and have it directly linked to the purchase order. Great for tracking an item through.
Cons
INVENTORY!!!! There is no direct link between the inventory sub-ledger and the ledger. There is no transaction list of what is recorded in the sub-ledger, so balancing inventory and determining where an outage may have occurred is a long, tedious process that involves tracking every purchase order received, bill, work order and invoice put into the system. Implementing the software is very time consuming and self-regulated. Enhancements to the software can be requested if your company agrees to pay for the programming time to develop it.
Response from Windward Software
Hi Nicole. Thank you for taking the time to provide your feedback with regards to Windward System Five.
Glad to hear that you are finding our Special Order Tracking feature useful; it's a popular one among many of our clients.
In terms of your concerns, upon review, it appears that there are, in fact, methods of solving some of the issues you are experiencing through existing product functionality. We encourage you to contact your Account Manager at +1 (800) 663-5750 to become registered for The Windward Learning Academy. This comprehensive online resource of easy-to-use product tutorials clearly demonstrates the most efficient means to use System Five by feature and scenario.
In addition, we value your feedback in terms of custom enhancements. In some cases, with requested enhancements that only pertain to a very small subset of our clients, at least a portion of this development work may be billed. Widely beneficial enhancements are completed in future releases at no fee.
- Used Daily for 6-12 months
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Review Source
This is NOT a Rental Software
We were running a good rental software program when we were approached by a Windward Software salesman who convinced us that we should give Windward a try. The salesman made us all kinds of promises, which we found out later were not all true. For example: don't believe it if
they tell you that they migrate your data, we ended up doing this all ourselves. On the surface, the Windward Program seemed to be a good rental system. It had a good inventory based set-up, We ended up repeatedly having this incomplete transaction screen popup. When we called for tech support to fix this problem, they would tell us to fix it ourselves, either by editing a single transaction or by p.o.s. This proved to be very difficult, and very time consuming. A program should never do this every day, and if it does the company should take responsibility to fix it, not the customer. This was the most unstable program from any we have used. We spent many days without our program working, due to their unreliable techs. This program was a nightmare for our accounting department. The accounting department had their workload tripled, due to the fact that the daily closing reports were not correct. We ended up creating a worksheet of every transaction for the closing period and transferring the data to make our journal entries for the day. In most cases their accounting techs didn't know what they were talking about, they never really fixed our problems, but instead told us, just reverse the transaction and do it again, the paper work piled up so much that we had to give an employee some time off for stress leave. This software would be a good inventory or p.o.s system , but it's definitely not designed for a rental or accounting system. All they did is add a rental module to an existing point of sale system, if you rented only 1 or 2 machines a day it would probably work, but if your main business is rentals, you would not want this system
Pros
This software would be a good inventory or p.o.s system
Cons
it's definitely not designed for a rental or accounting system
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 6-12 months
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Review Source
I have a 8 user licence. Many bugs and some functionality falls short. As if they did not...
Read all the reviews. This software could really be good if it was finished strong and some further thought was applied to the processes. It seems 80% complete with shortfalls in many areas. Financials are just not suitable for our size of business. It takes 4x the amount of time to complete a task compared to QB. My accountants find this aspect frustrating. They really should offer an integration with QB for those who want it. It feels like they are trying to cover too much in this software. I have some tickets on issues and bugs for over 3 months now and they still have not been completed. Of what I know now, I would not have purchased this software. I am looking for alternate software.
Pros
The sales aspect is good. POS is acceptable. Easy to find a product and sell it. Kits work well. Reporting is somewhat good. Support tries to resolve issues.
Cons
Financials - If you are serious about your business, this is not for you. It is not comparable to Quick books. They have flatly refused to integrate with QB. Their financial side scores a 1/10. The Multi currency module is full of promise but has many problems and bugs like display and operational issues. You have to be very careful when dealing with multi-currency. Procurement is quite basic and could have been thought through more. No real science or maths behind ordering so you better know your high, lows, trends etc. Some aspects are good but fall short in some areas. They state they are PCI compliant but fall short on monthly account payments. There is a work around but wastes time. If you do job cards or outwork, this is a challenge and you have to invent your own internal systems. Not sure on stock value integrity? Stock take process could have some enhancements to make it quicker for the user.
- Industry: Events Services
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Software is still limited on the rental side.
We started with this software, it is still fairly limited on the rental side but it is costly to change.
Pros
Easy to use for the basic functions of our business such as reserving, renting and returning product. Integrated POS.
Cons
Limited as far as scheduling for logistical planning, very basic and a lot of potential for mistakes, too manual in some respects. Rental reports need to be simplified the variety of reports needs to be expanded. Generally there needs to be more reports that are specific to the rental side designed by Windward that help to identify business opportunities as well as areas the business could improve in.
Response from Windward Software
Hi Dwayne, thank you for taking the time to provide us with your feedback.
In terms of your experience with the System Five Rentals Module, may we please suggest speaking to your Account Manager at +1 (800) 663-5750 to become registered for The Windward Learning Academy. This comprehensive online resource will provide you with user-friendly tutorials to craft advanced reports as well as to gain access to more detailed Rentals functionality.
In addition, please stay tuned for Windward Intelligence, an upcoming System Five enhancement that provides integration with Microsoft Power BI, which will enable our users to run custom reports.
- Used Daily for 1+ year
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Review Source
I have been using Windward System 5 as the Financial Controller for about 18 months
Pros
Windward System 5 is well organized and intuitive for knowledgeable users. It is an extensive system doing just about anything you could want in a business management/accounting system. Reports are extensive and well laid out, and allow you to drill through to the details in most cases.
Cons
It seems plagued with system errors. Not sure if this is just our platform, or if this happens to most users, but we get system errors on a very frequent basis (more than daily). Most are nothing and the system corrects them on its own, but some require more effort, and frequent assistance from Windward Support. Most of the support personnel are very helpful and knowledgeable, so your problems get fixed fairly quickly but they are still a nuisance.
Response from Windward Software
Hi Ronald. Thank you for your positive review of System Five: we're pleased to hear that you find it to be well organized and user friendly.
In terms of the system errors that you mention: this could indeed be related to your hardware setup. Please contact your Account Manager at your earliest convenience and discuss whether you have the minimum hardware requirements in place. In addition, if there is a recurring error that is causing you problems, please do let us know what it is and we will investigate to determine if it something we can permanently resolve.
- Industry: Machinery
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Do not spend your money or time on this Software!
Please ask around to similar businesses and see what they are using - Do not waste your money and your time on this program. When you phone for support -you have to fight for major issues to be fixed. Every year you have to pay a lot of money for renewal and support - and you could be having a know issue that is a programming error but you still have to pay for support to have it repaired
Pros
There isn't much I like about winward. Inventory is okay but not great.
Cons
It is slow. Freezes. We are not a large company but it takes a long time to generate the AP/ AR reports ect.
Exporting this to caseware or making you books easy access for your accountant is no existent. Which adds a major expense to a business' year end. Talk to your accountant - if they haven't heard of it - RUN! ( if they have they probably wont recommend it.) Subledger reports will not match Balance sheets: So generating an AR Report the balance will be different than the Balance Sheet.
We had issues with our inventory and selling - sometimes it pulls the cost of an item twice -so it would inflate our expenses!
- Industry: Mining & Metals
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Best system around if you are willing to put the effort in before you go live, super easy POS...
Best system I have ever used, to date have implemented this system in 2 businesses. This system has increased speed of transactions and lowered overheads. Best all round system.
Pros
Have put this system in 2 businesses have had no real issues to date that have not been easy to fix.
POS is pretty flawless and easy to use.
You can report on just about anything.
Support staff are fantastic, and implementation was easy. Windward are with you the whole way making sure everything works.
Cons
To date have non, anything that I have ever had an issue with usually stems from user error.
There are some processes that I would like to have, and they can absolutely be custom programed, like seeing what items on the invoice are have customer contract pricing, but this does not affect most sales and can be checked other ways. So not really a con just something that my end would be great, more than likely there is a way to do this. I am always learning new things to stream line the process.
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 2–10 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
This software is the most in depth software program we have found.
The best benefit is being able to control inventory.
Pros
It tracks model and serial numbers of appliances for customers and stores the details. Easy to use.
Cons
Set up was a little hard just because you had to create every outstanding work order you already had and every inventory item you have and when you are dealing with appliances, furniture, mattresses, and appliance parts it was a lot to do. The system upgrades and up front costs are somewhat pricey.
Response from Windward Software
Thank you, Jennifer, for taking the time to provide a review of your experiences with Windward System Five; we appreciate your feedback!
We are working diligently to provide advanced solutions to ease the initial data load for non-digital records, and continue to provide expert implementation to quickly port data for existing digital records.
All of us at Windward Software look forward to continuing to serve you in the future. If you have any questions or need assistance, please contact your Account Manager at any time: +1 (800) 663-5750.
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
easy to use as you learn one area at a time
Inventory management, historical data for customers, professional POS, and financial history and tracking all in one place , and working together.
Pros
all encompassing full service software for the business starting from the POS, inventory tracking, customer history tracking, book keeping etc.
Cons
help guide sometimes makes it difficult to find what you need to do to get the info you want, getting the terminology or areas to look correct first.
Response from Windward Software
Hi, Bart. Thanks very much for taking the time to provide your feedback with regards to Windward System Five. Great to hear that you're finding our suite of functionality to be useful for your business.
May we please encourage you to contact your Account Manager at +1 (800) 663-5750 to inquire about becoming registered for The Windward Learning Academy. This comprehensive yet easy-to-use online resource is free for Windward clients and will assist in fully and clearly answering any product feature questions you may have.
- Industry: Health, Wellness & Fitness
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used for 2+ years
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Review Source
Don’t, just don’t
Staff and customer service who don’t care once you have transferred your funds.
Issues will be addressed in a timeframe that will not only frustrate but will cost your company from making money or being able to grow.
This company has a terrible attitude and software package that has become so unstable windows 95 has become jealous.
Pros
Finding new and interesting and better software after being driven to the brink of insanity from a under performing, under maintained and un stable product.
Cons
Updates, did I mention updates, they don’t work, they simply fail, it’s like gambling when you update, will the software work tomorrow.... probably not.
Response from Windward Software
We are sorry to hear that you have encountered issues with our Windward System Five product. Upon close review of your file, I can confirm with you that the three software bugs that you identified were efficiently addressed and have been corrected in a short time frame. Our customer service department and your Account Manager have reached out to you on multiple occasions to notify you of this solution and to complete a software update such that you may operate the corrected version; however, we have not been able to reach you nor have we heard back from you. Please contact your Account Manager, Joleen, at +1 (800) 663-5750 at your earliest convenience and we will certainly work with you to ensure that your updated version is installed correctly.
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 51–200 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
The system is fairly easy to learn and I have been trained on multiple sections of the...
Sales reports and so on give a great view on how your business is growing
Pros
Many reports are available depending on what you want to keep track. It covers everything from your daily needs to monthly to yearly.
Cons
When updates are done some of the items we have used disappear or are not available with update. Have found some reports aren't accurate.
Response from Windward Software
Hi Judy -- thank you for taking the time to provide us with your feedback. We're happy to hear that you found System Five relatively easy to learn and are pleased with reporting functionality.
In terms of updates: if you experience any issues at any time, please do not hesitate to contact our customer support line at +1 (800) 663-5750 and a representative will be present to walk you through any issues you are experiencing.

- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Wondward Software is taking us to the next level of POS sales, service & support.
An All in One Sales, Customer tracking, Promo & follow up, Bookkeeping & Accounting Software With Great Support.
Pros
Back office accounting is saving us money by tracking inventory vs sales, as well as less cost with accounting fees by running an all inclusive bookkeeping/accounting program.
Cons
The occasional glitches, after each windows update, with form display screens freezing up the software.
Response from Windward Software
Thank you, Ed, for taking the time to provide us with your feedback and for your positive comments: much appreciated!
We are committed to ensuring that Windward System Five is 100% seamless in operation with all future Windows releases. That said, if you experience any issues please contact our Customer Support Team at any time for assistance: +1 (800) 663-5750.
- Industry: Retail
- Company size: 11–50 Employees
- Used Daily for 2+ years
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Review Source
Not the right system for our type of business. Probably better for a small retail company.
Pros
I really don't know what we like most about the software. We have had the system for almost 10 years and it has never worked well for us, even after investing tens of thousands of dollars...
Cons
Not user friendly. Expensive. Support doesn't know how to fix the problem most of the time. System not capable of performing functions that are necessary for our business. Confusing. Have spent hours and hours trying to get the system to work correctly without success. Hired someone to come help us learn the system better that cost us almost so much money and we weren't any further ahead than before they came.